C2DM is deprecated, no new sign-ups
I've got my own OVMS server going. However, I wasn't seeing notifications on my phone (Android) since moving away from tmc.openvehicles.com. Looking at the ovms_server.pl code it appears that ovms_server.conf requires this section: [c2dm] email=<email> password=<password> accounttype=<unknown> [This "c2dm" section, along with the "server", "master", and "log" sections are undocumented in the docs/HOWTO.server.txt file.] Okay, so it would seem that I need to set-up a C2DM account with Google and put that info into the conf file. But, Google has deprecated C2DM in favour of Google Cloud Messaging (GCM), and Google is not granting any new C2DM accounts... http://developer.android.com/google/gcm/c2dm.html Is the C2DM account used by tmc.openvehicles.com a generic account that can be used by other OVMS servers? I suspect that it is a private account. If so, then push notifications for Android users on independent servers will necessarily require a transition to GCM. Thanks, Lee. -- *Lee Howard* *Mainpine, Inc. Chief Technology Officer* Tel: +1 866 363 6680 | Fax: +1 360 462 8160 lee.howard@mainpine.com | www.mainpine.com
Lee, Google's habit of obsoleting APIs and services is incredibly frustrating. We just had to do this for the maps API, and it was a pita. While transition of c2dm->gcm is not hard, it is not backwards compatible so we have to support both until no one is left using c2dm (which could be a while as android users often can't update to the latest OS version). That said, gcm is API level 8 (Android 2.2) so not too bad. The c2dm works by using the same account as used to sign binaries for the play store, so it has to be private. If you roll your own server, you need to also sign your own binaries (or re-sign the existing ones and side-load to the phone). That is the way c2dm works, and iOS is similar with its APNS. One workaround I am very willing to do is that we already have a mechanism for servers to inter-connect to the root www.openvehicles.com server. I am willing to introduce a mechanism where push notifications, by configuration, could be sent over that inter-connect and then APNS/C2DM/GCM done from the root (using its credentials). It is quite simple to do - just hasn't been a priority. Regards, Mark
On 6 Jul, 2014, at 6:48 am, Lee Howard <lee.howard@mainpine.com> wrote:
I've got my own OVMS server going. However, I wasn't seeing notifications on my phone (Android) since moving away from tmc.openvehicles.com. Looking at the ovms_server.pl code it appears that ovms_server.conf requires this section:
[c2dm] email=<email> password=<password> accounttype=<unknown>
[This "c2dm" section, along with the "server", "master", and "log" sections are undocumented in the docs/HOWTO.server.txt file.]
Okay, so it would seem that I need to set-up a C2DM account with Google and put that info into the conf file. But, Google has deprecated C2DM in favour of Google Cloud Messaging (GCM), and Google is not granting any new C2DM accounts...
http://developer.android.com/google/gcm/c2dm.html
Is the C2DM account used by tmc.openvehicles.com a generic account that can be used by other OVMS servers? I suspect that it is a private account. If so, then push notifications for Android users on independent servers will necessarily require a transition to GCM.
Thanks,
Lee.
-- *Lee Howard* *Mainpine, Inc. Chief Technology Officer* Tel: +1 866 363 6680 | Fax: +1 360 462 8160 lee.howard@mainpine.com | www.mainpine.com _______________________________________________ OvmsDev mailing list OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev
On 07/05/2014 05:09 PM, Mark Webb-Johnson wrote:
One workaround I am very willing to do is that we already have a mechanism for servers to inter-connect to the root www.openvehicles.com server. I am willing to introduce a mechanism where push notifications, by configuration, could be sent over that inter-connect and then APNS/C2DM/GCM done from the root (using its credentials). It is quite simple to do - just hasn't been a priority.
I am very happy to see push notifications delivered as you describe. The OCM updates are much more important to me, so please don't detract from the OCM development in order to accomplish this bit. Please let me know where I can be of help on the OCM updates. Thanks, Lee. -- *Lee Howard* *Mainpine, Inc. Chief Technology Officer* Tel: +1 866 363 6680 | Fax: +1 360 462 8160 lee.howard@mainpine.com | www.mainpine.com
I knew about the todo, but I missed the deadline:
*The C2DM service will be shut down completely on 10/20/2015*.
...and it seems this just happened, Android push notifications are no longer working. Anybody familiar with GCM? I'll have a look... Regards, Michael Am 06.07.2014 um 02:09 schrieb Mark Webb-Johnson:
Lee,
Google's habit of obsoleting APIs and services is incredibly frustrating. We just had to do this for the maps API, and it was a pita. While transition of c2dm->gcm is not hard, it is not backwards compatible so we have to support both until no one is left using c2dm (which could be a while as android users often can't update to the latest OS version). That said, gcm is API level 8 (Android 2.2) so not too bad.
The c2dm works by using the same account as used to sign binaries for the play store, so it has to be private. If you roll your own server, you need to also sign your own binaries (or re-sign the existing ones and side-load to the phone). That is the way c2dm works, and iOS is similar with its APNS.
One workaround I am very willing to do is that we already have a mechanism for servers to inter-connect to the root www.openvehicles.com server. I am willing to introduce a mechanism where push notifications, by configuration, could be sent over that inter-connect and then APNS/C2DM/GCM done from the root (using its credentials). It is quite simple to do - just hasn't been a priority.
Regards, Mark
On 6 Jul, 2014, at 6:48 am, Lee Howard <lee.howard@mainpine.com> wrote:
I've got my own OVMS server going. However, I wasn't seeing notifications on my phone (Android) since moving away from tmc.openvehicles.com. Looking at the ovms_server.pl code it appears that ovms_server.conf requires this section:
[c2dm] email=<email> password=<password> accounttype=<unknown>
[This "c2dm" section, along with the "server", "master", and "log" sections are undocumented in the docs/HOWTO.server.txt file.]
Okay, so it would seem that I need to set-up a C2DM account with Google and put that info into the conf file. But, Google has deprecated C2DM in favour of Google Cloud Messaging (GCM), and Google is not granting any new C2DM accounts...
http://developer.android.com/google/gcm/c2dm.html
Is the C2DM account used by tmc.openvehicles.com a generic account that can be used by other OVMS servers? I suspect that it is a private account. If so, then push notifications for Android users on independent servers will necessarily require a transition to GCM.
Thanks,
Lee.
-- *Lee Howard* *Mainpine, Inc. Chief Technology Officer* Tel: +1 866 363 6680 | Fax: +1 360 462 8160 lee.howard@mainpine.com | www.mainpine.com _______________________________________________ OvmsDev mailing list OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev
OvmsDev mailing list OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev
-- Michael Balzer * Helkenberger Weg 9 * D-58256 Ennepetal Fon 02333 / 833 5735 * Handy 0176 / 206 989 26
Yeah, and the ClientLogin auth service just went down as well. Need help on the App side for GCM. The server side I can probably handle. Regards, Mark.
On 23 Oct 2015, at 9:33 PM, Michael Balzer <dexter@expeedo.de> wrote:
I knew about the todo, but I missed the deadline:
The C2DM service will be shut down completely on 10/20/2015.
...and it seems this just happened, Android push notifications are no longer working.
Anybody familiar with GCM?
I'll have a look...
Regards, Michael
Am 06.07.2014 um 02:09 schrieb Mark Webb-Johnson:
Lee,
Google's habit of obsoleting APIs and services is incredibly frustrating. We just had to do this for the maps API, and it was a pita. While transition of c2dm->gcm is not hard, it is not backwards compatible so we have to support both until no one is left using c2dm (which could be a while as android users often can't update to the latest OS version). That said, gcm is API level 8 (Android 2.2) so not too bad.
The c2dm works by using the same account as used to sign binaries for the play store, so it has to be private. If you roll your own server, you need to also sign your own binaries (or re-sign the existing ones and side-load to the phone). That is the way c2dm works, and iOS is similar with its APNS.
One workaround I am very willing to do is that we already have a mechanism for servers to inter-connect to the root www.openvehicles.com <http://www.openvehicles.com/> server. I am willing to introduce a mechanism where push notifications, by configuration, could be sent over that inter-connect and then APNS/C2DM/GCM done from the root (using its credentials). It is quite simple to do - just hasn't been a priority.
Regards, Mark
On 6 Jul, 2014, at 6:48 am, Lee Howard <lee.howard@mainpine.com> <mailto:lee.howard@mainpine.com> wrote:
I've got my own OVMS server going. However, I wasn't seeing notifications on my phone (Android) since moving away from tmc.openvehicles.com. Looking at the ovms_server.pl code it appears that ovms_server.conf requires this section:
[c2dm] email=<email> password=<password> accounttype=<unknown>
[This "c2dm" section, along with the "server", "master", and "log" sections are undocumented in the docs/HOWTO.server.txt file.]
Okay, so it would seem that I need to set-up a C2DM account with Google and put that info into the conf file. But, Google has deprecated C2DM in favour of Google Cloud Messaging (GCM), and Google is not granting any new C2DM accounts...
http://developer.android.com/google/gcm/c2dm.html <http://developer.android.com/google/gcm/c2dm.html>
Is the C2DM account used by tmc.openvehicles.com a generic account that can be used by other OVMS servers? I suspect that it is a private account. If so, then push notifications for Android users on independent servers will necessarily require a transition to GCM.
Thanks,
Lee.
-- *Lee Howard* *Mainpine, Inc. Chief Technology Officer* Tel: +1 866 363 6680 | Fax: +1 360 462 8160 lee.howard@mainpine.com <mailto:lee.howard@mainpine.com> | www.mainpine.com <http://www.mainpine.com/> _______________________________________________ OvmsDev mailing list OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk <mailto:OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk> http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev <http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev>
OvmsDev mailing list OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk <mailto:OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk> http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev <http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev>
-- Michael Balzer * Helkenberger Weg 9 * D-58256 Ennepetal Fon 02333 / 833 5735 * Handy 0176 / 206 989 26 <dexter.vcf>_______________________________________________ OvmsDev mailing list OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev
I should be able to do the App side, currently reading the docs. Am 23.10.2015 um 16:32 schrieb Mark Webb-Johnson:
Yeah, and the ClientLogin auth service just went down as well.
Need help on the App side for GCM. The server side I can probably handle.
Regards, Mark.
On 23 Oct 2015, at 9:33 PM, Michael Balzer <dexter@expeedo.de <mailto:dexter@expeedo.de>> wrote:
I knew about the todo, but I missed the deadline:
*The C2DM service will be shut down completely on 10/20/2015*.
...and it seems this just happened, Android push notifications are no longer working.
Anybody familiar with GCM?
I'll have a look...
Regards, Michael
Am 06.07.2014 um 02:09 schrieb Mark Webb-Johnson:
Lee,
Google's habit of obsoleting APIs and services is incredibly frustrating. We just had to do this for the maps API, and it was a pita. While transition of c2dm->gcm is not hard, it is not backwards compatible so we have to support both until no one is left using c2dm (which could be a while as android users often can't update to the latest OS version). That said, gcm is API level 8 (Android 2.2) so not too bad.
The c2dm works by using the same account as used to sign binaries for the play store, so it has to be private. If you roll your own server, you need to also sign your own binaries (or re-sign the existing ones and side-load to the phone). That is the way c2dm works, and iOS is similar with its APNS.
One workaround I am very willing to do is that we already have a mechanism for servers to inter-connect to the root www.openvehicles.com server. I am willing to introduce a mechanism where push notifications, by configuration, could be sent over that inter-connect and then APNS/C2DM/GCM done from the root (using its credentials). It is quite simple to do - just hasn't been a priority.
Regards, Mark
On 6 Jul, 2014, at 6:48 am, Lee Howard <lee.howard@mainpine.com> wrote:
I've got my own OVMS server going. However, I wasn't seeing notifications on my phone (Android) since moving away from tmc.openvehicles.com <http://tmc.openvehicles.com>. Looking at the ovms_server.pl code it appears that ovms_server.conf requires this section:
[c2dm] email=<email> password=<password> accounttype=<unknown>
[This "c2dm" section, along with the "server", "master", and "log" sections are undocumented in the docs/HOWTO.server.txt file.]
Okay, so it would seem that I need to set-up a C2DM account with Google and put that info into the conf file. But, Google has deprecated C2DM in favour of Google Cloud Messaging (GCM), and Google is not granting any new C2DM accounts...
http://developer.android.com/google/gcm/c2dm.html
Is the C2DM account used by tmc.openvehicles.com <http://tmc.openvehicles.com> a generic account that can be used by other OVMS servers? I suspect that it is a private account. If so, then push notifications for Android users on independent servers will necessarily require a transition to GCM.
Thanks,
Lee.
-- *Lee Howard* *Mainpine, Inc. Chief Technology Officer* Tel: +1 866 363 6680 | Fax: +1 360 462 8160 lee.howard@mainpine.com | www.mainpine.com _______________________________________________ OvmsDev mailing list OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev
OvmsDev mailing list OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev
-- Michael Balzer * Helkenberger Weg 9 * D-58256 Ennepetal Fon 02333 / 833 5735 * Handy 0176 / 206 989 26 <dexter.vcf>_______________________________________________ OvmsDev mailing list OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk <mailto:OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk> http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev
_______________________________________________ OvmsDev mailing list OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev
-- Michael Balzer * Helkenberger Weg 9 * D-58256 Ennepetal Fon 02333 / 833 5735 * Handy 0176 / 206 989 26
As Mark wrote, for GCM I needed to switch to the latest Android SDK and support libs, which introduced all kinds of API deprecation and compatibility problems. It was necessary to replace ActionBarSherlock by the support libs ActionBarCompat and to update the maps extensions lib. The App now builds and starts again (on Android 5.1, need to test other versions), but is not yet usable. My next todos: - Maps integration is broken and crashes occasionally now (it seems this was done wrong from the beginning) - ActionBarCompat does not support a progress indicator, need to implement one - GCM integration - Fix ActionBarCompat & App theme styling - Android 2.3 tests There are still lots of API deprecation warnings remaining, which hopefully don't all need to be fixed right now... Regards, Michael Am 23.10.2015 um 16:42 schrieb Michael Balzer:
I should be able to do the App side, currently reading the docs.
Am 23.10.2015 um 16:32 schrieb Mark Webb-Johnson:
Yeah, and the ClientLogin auth service just went down as well.
Need help on the App side for GCM. The server side I can probably handle.
Regards, Mark.
On 23 Oct 2015, at 9:33 PM, Michael Balzer <dexter@expeedo.de <mailto:dexter@expeedo.de>> wrote:
I knew about the todo, but I missed the deadline:
*The C2DM service will be shut down completely on 10/20/2015*.
...and it seems this just happened, Android push notifications are no longer working.
Anybody familiar with GCM?
I'll have a look...
Regards, Michael
-- Michael Balzer * Helkenberger Weg 9 * D-58256 Ennepetal Fon 02333 / 833 5735 * Handy 0176 / 206 989 26
Milestone reached: the App now runs again without major flaws on Android 2.3 - 5.1. - maps integration fixed - custom ProgressBar for ActionBarCompat - basic AppCompat styling - successful testing on Android 2.3 & 5.1 (should do on all API versions
= 9)
I've created a new branch "gcm": https://github.com/openvehicles/Open-Vehicle-Android/tree/gcm Coming next: - GCM integration Regards, Michael Am 27.10.2015 um 10:14 schrieb Michael Balzer:
As Mark wrote, for GCM I needed to switch to the latest Android SDK and support libs, which introduced all kinds of API deprecation and compatibility problems.
It was necessary to replace ActionBarSherlock by the support libs ActionBarCompat and to update the maps extensions lib.
The App now builds and starts again (on Android 5.1, need to test other versions), but is not yet usable.
My next todos: - Maps integration is broken and crashes occasionally now (it seems this was done wrong from the beginning) - ActionBarCompat does not support a progress indicator, need to implement one - GCM integration - Fix ActionBarCompat & App theme styling - Android 2.3 tests
There are still lots of API deprecation warnings remaining, which hopefully don't all need to be fixed right now...
Regards, Michael
Am 23.10.2015 um 16:42 schrieb Michael Balzer:
I should be able to do the App side, currently reading the docs.
Am 23.10.2015 um 16:32 schrieb Mark Webb-Johnson:
Yeah, and the ClientLogin auth service just went down as well.
Need help on the App side for GCM. The server side I can probably handle.
Regards, Mark.
On 23 Oct 2015, at 9:33 PM, Michael Balzer <dexter@expeedo.de <mailto:dexter@expeedo.de>> wrote:
I knew about the todo, but I missed the deadline:
*The C2DM service will be shut down completely on 10/20/2015*.
...and it seems this just happened, Android push notifications are no longer working.
Anybody familiar with GCM?
I'll have a look...
Regards, Michael
-- Michael Balzer * Helkenberger Weg 9 * D-58256 Ennepetal Fon 02333 / 833 5735 * Handy 0176 / 206 989 26
_______________________________________________ OvmsDev mailing list OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev
-- Michael Balzer * Helkenberger Weg 9 * D-58256 Ennepetal Fon 02333 / 833 5735 * Handy 0176 / 206 989 26
GCM integration is basically done on server & app side, we need some beta testers now. The beta Android App can be downloaded from... http://dexters-web.de/f/tw/OpenVehicleApp-debug-3.11.0.apk http://dexters-web.de/f/tw/OpenVehicleApp-release-3.11.0.apk Please note: this beta APK has been signed with my personal development key, so you need to uninstall the play store version before installing this one. It may also be necessary to clear the App data. If you'd like to build yourself, the gcm branch should now open directly in Android Studio. First start on an old & slow device will take some time to load the OCM meta data. If you find some issue, please report as detailed as possible including your Android environment. For crashes please try to get a logcat dump using the debug APK. Thanks! Michael Am 30.10.2015 um 21:28 schrieb Michael Balzer:
Milestone reached: the App now runs again without major flaws on Android 2.3 - 5.1.
- maps integration fixed - custom ProgressBar for ActionBarCompat - basic AppCompat styling - successful testing on Android 2.3 & 5.1 (should do on all API versions >= 9)
I've created a new branch "gcm": https://github.com/openvehicles/Open-Vehicle-Android/tree/gcm
Coming next: - GCM integration
Regards, Michael
Am 27.10.2015 um 10:14 schrieb Michael Balzer:
As Mark wrote, for GCM I needed to switch to the latest Android SDK and support libs, which introduced all kinds of API deprecation and compatibility problems.
It was necessary to replace ActionBarSherlock by the support libs ActionBarCompat and to update the maps extensions lib.
The App now builds and starts again (on Android 5.1, need to test other versions), but is not yet usable.
My next todos: - Maps integration is broken and crashes occasionally now (it seems this was done wrong from the beginning) - ActionBarCompat does not support a progress indicator, need to implement one - GCM integration - Fix ActionBarCompat & App theme styling - Android 2.3 tests
There are still lots of API deprecation warnings remaining, which hopefully don't all need to be fixed right now...
Regards, Michael
Am 23.10.2015 um 16:42 schrieb Michael Balzer:
I should be able to do the App side, currently reading the docs.
Am 23.10.2015 um 16:32 schrieb Mark Webb-Johnson:
Yeah, and the ClientLogin auth service just went down as well.
Need help on the App side for GCM. The server side I can probably handle.
Regards, Mark.
On 23 Oct 2015, at 9:33 PM, Michael Balzer <dexter@expeedo.de <mailto:dexter@expeedo.de>> wrote:
I knew about the todo, but I missed the deadline:
*The C2DM service will be shut down completely on 10/20/2015*.
...and it seems this just happened, Android push notifications are no longer working.
Anybody familiar with GCM?
I'll have a look...
Regards, Michael
-- Michael Balzer * Helkenberger Weg 9 * D-58256 Ennepetal Fon 02333 / 833 5735 * Handy 0176 / 206 989 26
It's now also possible to send push notifications to Android devices from your own OVMS server. You'll need the current server version 2.2.1 and the current App version 3.11.1. App 3.11.1 developer release APK is here: http://dexters-web.de/f/tw/OpenVehicleApp-release-3.11.1.apk The server/README describes how to register your own GCM sender id. The new App version allows to specify a custom GCM sender id per vehicle. Tests & feedback are welcome. Btw: server V2.2.1 also adds a timestamp to the GCM pushes, so notifications will now show their server-side send times instead of their receive times. Regards, Michael Am 06.11.2015 um 01:32 schrieb Michael Balzer:
GCM integration is basically done on server & app side, we need some beta testers now.
The beta Android App can be downloaded from...
http://dexters-web.de/f/tw/OpenVehicleApp-debug-3.11.0.apk http://dexters-web.de/f/tw/OpenVehicleApp-release-3.11.0.apk
Please note: this beta APK has been signed with my personal development key, so you need to uninstall the play store version before installing this one. It may also be necessary to clear the App data.
If you'd like to build yourself, the gcm branch should now open directly in Android Studio.
First start on an old & slow device will take some time to load the OCM meta data.
If you find some issue, please report as detailed as possible including your Android environment.
For crashes please try to get a logcat dump using the debug APK.
Thanks!
Michael
Am 30.10.2015 um 21:28 schrieb Michael Balzer:
Milestone reached: the App now runs again without major flaws on Android 2.3 - 5.1.
- maps integration fixed - custom ProgressBar for ActionBarCompat - basic AppCompat styling - successful testing on Android 2.3 & 5.1 (should do on all API versions >= 9)
I've created a new branch "gcm": https://github.com/openvehicles/Open-Vehicle-Android/tree/gcm
Coming next: - GCM integration
Regards, Michael
Am 27.10.2015 um 10:14 schrieb Michael Balzer:
As Mark wrote, for GCM I needed to switch to the latest Android SDK and support libs, which introduced all kinds of API deprecation and compatibility problems.
It was necessary to replace ActionBarSherlock by the support libs ActionBarCompat and to update the maps extensions lib.
The App now builds and starts again (on Android 5.1, need to test other versions), but is not yet usable.
My next todos: - Maps integration is broken and crashes occasionally now (it seems this was done wrong from the beginning) - ActionBarCompat does not support a progress indicator, need to implement one - GCM integration - Fix ActionBarCompat & App theme styling - Android 2.3 tests
There are still lots of API deprecation warnings remaining, which hopefully don't all need to be fixed right now...
Regards, Michael
Am 23.10.2015 um 16:42 schrieb Michael Balzer:
I should be able to do the App side, currently reading the docs.
Am 23.10.2015 um 16:32 schrieb Mark Webb-Johnson:
Yeah, and the ClientLogin auth service just went down as well.
Need help on the App side for GCM. The server side I can probably handle.
Regards, Mark.
On 23 Oct 2015, at 9:33 PM, Michael Balzer <dexter@expeedo.de <mailto:dexter@expeedo.de>> wrote:
I knew about the todo, but I missed the deadline:
> *The C2DM service will be shut down completely on 10/20/2015*.
...and it seems this just happened, Android push notifications are no longer working.
Anybody familiar with GCM?
I'll have a look...
Regards, Michael
-- Michael Balzer * Helkenberger Weg 9 * D-58256 Ennepetal Fon 02333 / 833 5735 * Handy 0176 / 206 989 26
_______________________________________________ OvmsDev mailing list OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev
-- Michael Balzer * Helkenberger Weg 9 * D-58256 Ennepetal Fon 02333 / 833 5735 * Handy 0176 / 206 989 26
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 6:33 AM, Michael Balzer <dexter@expeedo.de> wrote:
C2DM service
Have you looked at: https://developers.google.com/cloud-messaging/c2dm Phil H.
participants (4)
-
Lee Howard -
Mark Webb-Johnson -
Michael Balzer -
phil hochstetler