Greg, if a car cannot provide the 12v charging flag it has two options: a) disable the 12v alert system by overriding the methods (as Mark did) b) provide a suitable reference value at startup. Option b can be done by yourself / script: metric set v.b.12v.voltage.ref 12.65 …or you can raise the threshold from 1.6 to whatever fits your readings. Maybe I'll add a config for the initial reference voltage on startup, as that can also be wrong due to 12v noise. Regards, Michael Am 20.05.2018 um 01:10 schrieb Greg D.:

Thanks for the overview, Michael. I have not experienced the v2 module, so didn't know how this worked.

If the reference is taken at boot, then plugging the module in with the car awake would give a too-high value vs when it's asleep. I guess the idea is that it should reset itself to a more reasonable value after the first charging session, yet I'm not seeing that. It seems to be stuck at 13v, which presumably was what it recorded at the reboot when I was playing with the SD card (car was awake and apparently annoyed at the time). I'm on the .005 code, which apparently pre-dates Mark's commits, though the commit was 30-April and the .005 build is dated 1-May... {shrug}

The algorithm sounds like it is intended to detect a weak battery by observing its behavior after being charged, but is this sensing available on all cars? I'm guessing not, and that the Roadster not one of them. For those that aren't, couldn't we just have a configured / configurable threshold that would trigger the alert? Regardless of vehicle type, 12v battery health is an important metric to watch.

Since I'm currently waiting for the modem issue to repeat, I'll just live with the alerts for now (vs resetting the module to capture a lower threshold value), and see what happens with the .006 software. The car just completed its periodic top-off, generating another pair of events (12 restored, followed by 12v alert).

Thanks again for the explanation,

Greg

Michael Balzer wrote:

...

Greg,

Mark disabled the 12V alerts on the roadster firmware some commits ago.

Regarding the alert configuration:

commit 9c1a991a9a27de8afdc9fd408262a2fe0be7aef4 Author: Michael Balzer <balzer@expeedo.de> Date: Mon Apr 30 22:39:05 2018 +0200

Vehicle: 12V battery monitoring & alert

New configs: - vehicle [12v.alert] = 1.6 Voltage drop alert threshold in V vs. reference

New metrics: - v.b.12v.voltage.ref 12V reference voltage [V] - v.b.12v.voltage.alert Alert status (bool)

This works like the old V2 12V monitoring, just a bit improved. The reference voltage is taken after max 15 minutes calmdown time after 12V charging stops. The initial reference is the first voltage measured at boot.

Also, the AD conversion needs to be calibrated for each module, to compensate component tolerances. If you haven't done that for your modules yet, their 12V measurements will differ. To calibrate, measure your real 12V level and change config system.adc factor12v accordingly for each module.

Regards, Michael

Am 19.05.2018 um 02:26 schrieb Greg D.:

...

Hi folks,

I'm getting alerts from OVMS that my 12v battery is failing, as it's dropped below the threshold, which is set to 13v for some reason. So I get a notification every time the car transitions from awake to asleep.

I don't see a configuration item, nor anything in the OVMS v2 app. Oddly, the threshold is 13.2 for my v3.0 proto module, but I can't find a config item there either.

How do I change the threshold?

Greg

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Thanks, Michael. Just curious, did this make it into .006? Greg Michael Balzer wrote:

Am 20.05.2018 um 08:44 schrieb Michael Balzer:

...

Maybe I'll add a config for the initial reference voltage on startup, as that can also be wrong due to 12v noise. Done.

New config: - vehicle [12v.ref] = 12.6 Initial value for v.b.12v.voltage.ref

Regards, Michael

Roadster doesn’t have a 12V battery. Ok, it does, but it is only used to power emergency systems and not OVMS or the majority of the car. The 12V power for OVMS comes from the main first sheets in 1.5 car, or a dc-dc converter in 2.x cars. I haven’t worked out how to get a reliable 12v reference for that, so disabled the alerts for the moment. If we do manage to read the actual 12v voltage, it will be from a can bus message and will have to be handled specifically for Tesla Roadster. Regards, Mark

On 20 May 2018, at 2:44 PM, Michael Balzer <dexter@expeedo.de> wrote:

Greg,

if a car cannot provide the 12v charging flag it has two options:

a) disable the 12v alert system by overriding the methods (as Mark did) b) provide a suitable reference value at startup.

Option b can be done by yourself / script:

metric set v.b.12v.voltage.ref 12.65

…or you can raise the threshold from 1.6 to whatever fits your readings.

Maybe I'll add a config for the initial reference voltage on startup, as that can also be wrong due to 12v noise.

Regards, Michael

...

Am 20.05.2018 um 01:10 schrieb Greg D.: Thanks for the overview, Michael. I have not experienced the v2 module, so didn't know how this worked.

If the reference is taken at boot, then plugging the module in with the car awake would give a too-high value vs when it's asleep. I guess the idea is that it should reset itself to a more reasonable value after the first charging session, yet I'm not seeing that. It seems to be stuck at 13v, which presumably was what it recorded at the reboot when I was playing with the SD card (car was awake and apparently annoyed at the time). I'm on the .005 code, which apparently pre-dates Mark's commits, though the commit was 30-April and the .005 build is dated 1-May... {shrug}

The algorithm sounds like it is intended to detect a weak battery by observing its behavior after being charged, but is this sensing available on all cars? I'm guessing not, and that the Roadster not one of them. For those that aren't, couldn't we just have a configured / configurable threshold that would trigger the alert? Regardless of vehicle type, 12v battery health is an important metric to watch.

Since I'm currently waiting for the modem issue to repeat, I'll just live with the alerts for now (vs resetting the module to capture a lower threshold value), and see what happens with the .006 software. The car just completed its periodic top-off, generating another pair of events (12 restored, followed by 12v alert).

Thanks again for the explanation,

Greg

Michael Balzer wrote:

...

Greg,

Mark disabled the 12V alerts on the roadster firmware some commits ago.

Regarding the alert configuration:

commit 9c1a991a9a27de8afdc9fd408262a2fe0be7aef4 Author: Michael Balzer <balzer@expeedo.de> Date: Mon Apr 30 22:39:05 2018 +0200

Vehicle: 12V battery monitoring & alert

New configs: - vehicle [12v.alert] = 1.6 Voltage drop alert threshold in V vs. reference

New metrics: - v.b.12v.voltage.ref 12V reference voltage [V] - v.b.12v.voltage.alert Alert status (bool)

This works like the old V2 12V monitoring, just a bit improved. The reference voltage is taken after max 15 minutes calmdown time after 12V charging stops. The initial reference is the first voltage measured at boot.

Also, the AD conversion needs to be calibrated for each module, to compensate component tolerances. If you haven't done that for your modules yet, their 12V measurements will differ. To calibrate, measure your real 12V level and change config system.adc factor12v accordingly for each module.

Regards, Michael

...

Am 19.05.2018 um 02:26 schrieb Greg D.: Hi folks,

I'm getting alerts from OVMS that my 12v battery is failing, as it's dropped below the threshold, which is set to 13v for some reason. So I get a notification every time the car transitions from awake to asleep.

I don't see a configuration item, nor anything in the OVMS v2 app. Oddly, the threshold is 13.2 for my v3.0 proto module, but I can't find a config item there either.

How do I change the threshold?

Greg

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Greg, The roadster has: APS: Auxiliary Power Supply. Generated by a DC-DC converter in the ESS and producing about 13.5v. There are two APS outputs - one for the PEM and one for the rest of the car. BPS: Backup Power Supply. 1.x cars have this from the first two sheets. 2.x cars have this from the little 12v battery in the front wheel arch. This is used to power emergency systems (hazard lights, etc) should the APS fail. In normal operation, this is not used at all. I’ve never really bothered to look much further than that. From my understanding, the BPS is irrelevant to OVMS - we never see it and it is certainly not what is powering that 12v line we are on. I think the 13.5v vs 11.4v is different states of the APS. Regards, Mark.

On 21 May 2018, at 9:16 AM, Greg D. <gregd2350@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Mark,

So I'm really confused how the Roadster is wired. My own car (a 2.0 model) had its 12v battery replaced about 2 years ago. When we did, I brought along some wires and a PowerPole connector, and asked the Tesla tech if they could wire that in at the battery, so that I could "jump" the car if necessary. As a side effect, that's given me a peek into the battery's voltage without having to take half the car apart.

The OVMS module is attached to the diagnostic connector under the dash, as usual. It tells me that the 12v supply is at about 13v when the car is awake, and 11.4 when asleep. Uncalibrated, that sounds about right. But the battery (via the jumper cable) stays at 13.7, regardless of the car's sleep state.

At the last service I challenged the service folks to explain what was going on. They couldn't. We thought that when the car was asleep, the only systems alive were being powered by the battery alone, and that the DC-DC converter was only active when it was awake. That would explain the OVMS readings, but not that of the 12v battery. If the DC-DC was always active, that would explain the battery readings, but not the OVMS.

How can they both be true?

Greg

Mark Webb-Johnson wrote:

...

Roadster doesn’t have a 12V battery. Ok, it does, but it is only used to power emergency systems and not OVMS or the majority of the car.

The 12V power for OVMS comes from the main first sheets in 1.5 car, or a dc-dc converter in 2.x cars. I haven’t worked out how to get a reliable 12v reference for that, so disabled the alerts for the moment. If we do manage to read the actual 12v voltage, it will be from a can bus message and will have to be handled specifically for Tesla Roadster.

Regards, Mark

...

On 20 May 2018, at 2:44 PM, Michael Balzer <dexter@expeedo.de> wrote:

Greg,

if a car cannot provide the 12v charging flag it has two options:

a) disable the 12v alert system by overriding the methods (as Mark did) b) provide a suitable reference value at startup.

Option b can be done by yourself / script:

metric set v.b.12v.voltage.ref 12.65

…or you can raise the threshold from 1.6 to whatever fits your readings.

Maybe I'll add a config for the initial reference voltage on startup, as that can also be wrong due to 12v noise.

Regards, Michael

...

Am 20.05.2018 um 01:10 schrieb Greg D.: Thanks for the overview, Michael. I have not experienced the v2 module, so didn't know how this worked.

If the reference is taken at boot, then plugging the module in with the car awake would give a too-high value vs when it's asleep. I guess the idea is that it should reset itself to a more reasonable value after the first charging session, yet I'm not seeing that. It seems to be stuck at 13v, which presumably was what it recorded at the reboot when I was playing with the SD card (car was awake and apparently annoyed at the time). I'm on the .005 code, which apparently pre-dates Mark's commits, though the commit was 30-April and the .005 build is dated 1-May... {shrug}

The algorithm sounds like it is intended to detect a weak battery by observing its behavior after being charged, but is this sensing available on all cars? I'm guessing not, and that the Roadster not one of them. For those that aren't, couldn't we just have a configured / configurable threshold that would trigger the alert? Regardless of vehicle type, 12v battery health is an important metric to watch.

Since I'm currently waiting for the modem issue to repeat, I'll just live with the alerts for now (vs resetting the module to capture a lower threshold value), and see what happens with the .006 software. The car just completed its periodic top-off, generating another pair of events (12 restored, followed by 12v alert).

Thanks again for the explanation,

Greg

Michael Balzer wrote:

...

Greg,

Mark disabled the 12V alerts on the roadster firmware some commits ago.

Regarding the alert configuration:

commit 9c1a991a9a27de8afdc9fd408262a2fe0be7aef4 Author: Michael Balzer <balzer@expeedo.de> Date: Mon Apr 30 22:39:05 2018 +0200

Vehicle: 12V battery monitoring & alert

New configs: - vehicle [12v.alert] = 1.6 Voltage drop alert threshold in V vs. reference

New metrics: - v.b.12v.voltage.ref 12V reference voltage [V] - v.b.12v.voltage.alert Alert status (bool)

This works like the old V2 12V monitoring, just a bit improved. The reference voltage is taken after max 15 minutes calmdown time after 12V charging stops. The initial reference is the first voltage measured at boot.

Also, the AD conversion needs to be calibrated for each module, to compensate component tolerances. If you haven't done that for your modules yet, their 12V measurements will differ. To calibrate, measure your real 12V level and change config system.adc factor12v accordingly for each module.

Regards, Michael

...

Am 19.05.2018 um 02:26 schrieb Greg D.: Hi folks,

I'm getting alerts from OVMS that my 12v battery is failing, as it's dropped below the threshold, which is set to 13v for some reason. So I get a notification every time the car transitions from awake to asleep.

I don't see a configuration item, nor anything in the OVMS v2 app. Oddly, the threshold is 13.2 for my v3.0 proto module, but I can't find a config item there either.

How do I change the threshold?

Greg

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I think this is perfectly normal APS behaviour. The voltage changes depending on what parts of the car are switched on/off. I don’t think we have enough info to alert on APS failure, or even know this may be an APS failure based on a simple voltage measurement. My guess has been that the different parts of the APS have different output settings, and the switchpack may have an involvement as well. It is presumably two DC-DC converters in one box (as they can be individually enabled/disabled). I’ve never really confirmed 100% what ‘inhibit APS’ means. I think that it just turns off the part of the APS affecting the PEM (but leaves the car part on - in particular VMS and VDS, and OVMS). That 12v battery alert is really intended to alert on little 12v batteries failing. I don’t think it can apply to Roadster based on reading the voltage on the 12v line powering OVMS. Regards, Mark.

On 21 May 2018, at 12:43 PM, Greg D. <gregd2350@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Mark,

Ha. Well, that does sort of explain things, except how the 12v battery would ever be flagged as failed if it's being kept at a constant 13.78 volts. Perhaps the car periodically does a "selftest" on it by removing the power and seeing what it does. My UPS does that.

So, from your description, the alert for the Roadster's 12v battery actually is an alert for an APS failure. At least, a low APS output; I presume a sudden total failure would drop our supply before we could send out the alert. It's a lot less likely than the 12v battery failure, but probably more important. If we can get the reference voltage set right, perhaps it should be turned back on?

Greg

Mark Webb-Johnson wrote:

...

Greg,

The roadster has:

APS: Auxiliary Power Supply. Generated by a DC-DC converter in the ESS and producing about 13.5v. There are two APS outputs - one for the PEM and one for the rest of the car.

BPS: Backup Power Supply. 1.x cars have this from the first two sheets. 2.x cars have this from the little 12v battery in the front wheel arch. This is used to power emergency systems (hazard lights, etc) should the APS fail. In normal operation, this is not used at all.

I’ve never really bothered to look much further than that. From my understanding, the BPS is irrelevant to OVMS - we never see it and it is certainly not what is powering that 12v line we are on. I think the 13.5v vs 11.4v is different states of the APS.

Regards, Mark.

...

On 21 May 2018, at 9:16 AM, Greg D. <gregd2350@gmail.com <mailto:gregd2350@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi Mark,

So I'm really confused how the Roadster is wired. My own car (a 2.0 model) had its 12v battery replaced about 2 years ago. When we did, I brought along some wires and a PowerPole connector, and asked the Tesla tech if they could wire that in at the battery, so that I could "jump" the car if necessary. As a side effect, that's given me a peek into the battery's voltage without having to take half the car apart.

The OVMS module is attached to the diagnostic connector under the dash, as usual. It tells me that the 12v supply is at about 13v when the car is awake, and 11.4 when asleep. Uncalibrated, that sounds about right. But the battery (via the jumper cable) stays at 13.7, regardless of the car's sleep state.

At the last service I challenged the service folks to explain what was going on. They couldn't. We thought that when the car was asleep, the only systems alive were being powered by the battery alone, and that the DC-DC converter was only active when it was awake. That would explain the OVMS readings, but not that of the 12v battery. If the DC-DC was always active, that would explain the battery readings, but not the OVMS.

How can they both be true?

Greg

Mark Webb-Johnson wrote:

...

Roadster doesn’t have a 12V battery. Ok, it does, but it is only used to power emergency systems and not OVMS or the majority of the car.

The 12V power for OVMS comes from the main first sheets in 1.5 car, or a dc-dc converter in 2.x cars. I haven’t worked out how to get a reliable 12v reference for that, so disabled the alerts for the moment. If we do manage to read the actual 12v voltage, it will be from a can bus message and will have to be handled specifically for Tesla Roadster.

Regards, Mark

...

On 20 May 2018, at 2:44 PM, Michael Balzer <dexter@expeedo.de <mailto:dexter@expeedo.de>> wrote:

Greg,

if a car cannot provide the 12v charging flag it has two options:

a) disable the 12v alert system by overriding the methods (as Mark did) b) provide a suitable reference value at startup.

Option b can be done by yourself / script:

metric set v.b.12v.voltage.ref 12.65

…or you can raise the threshold from 1.6 to whatever fits your readings.

Maybe I'll add a config for the initial reference voltage on startup, as that can also be wrong due to 12v noise.

Regards, Michael

...

Am 20.05.2018 um 01:10 schrieb Greg D.: Thanks for the overview, Michael. I have not experienced the v2 module, so didn't know how this worked.

If the reference is taken at boot, then plugging the module in with the car awake would give a too-high value vs when it's asleep. I guess the idea is that it should reset itself to a more reasonable value after the first charging session, yet I'm not seeing that. It seems to be stuck at 13v, which presumably was what it recorded at the reboot when I was playing with the SD card (car was awake and apparently annoyed at the time). I'm on the .005 code, which apparently pre-dates Mark's commits, though the commit was 30-April and the .005 build is dated 1-May... {shrug}

The algorithm sounds like it is intended to detect a weak battery by observing its behavior after being charged, but is this sensing available on all cars? I'm guessing not, and that the Roadster not one of them. For those that aren't, couldn't we just have a configured / configurable threshold that would trigger the alert? Regardless of vehicle type, 12v battery health is an important metric to watch.

Since I'm currently waiting for the modem issue to repeat, I'll just live with the alerts for now (vs resetting the module to capture a lower threshold value), and see what happens with the .006 software. The car just completed its periodic top-off, generating another pair of events (12 restored, followed by 12v alert).

Thanks again for the explanation,

Greg

Michael Balzer wrote: > Greg, > > Mark disabled the 12V alerts on the roadster firmware some commits ago. > > Regarding the alert configuration: > > commit 9c1a991a9a27de8afdc9fd408262a2fe0be7aef4 > Author: Michael Balzer <balzer@expeedo.de <mailto:balzer@expeedo.de>> > Date: Mon Apr 30 22:39:05 2018 +0200 > > Vehicle: 12V battery monitoring & alert > > New configs: > - vehicle [12v.alert] = 1.6 Voltage drop alert threshold in V vs. reference > > New metrics: > - v.b.12v.voltage.ref 12V reference voltage [V] > - v.b.12v.voltage.alert Alert status (bool) > > > This works like the old V2 12V monitoring, just a bit improved. The reference voltage is taken after max 15 minutes calmdown time after 12V charging stops. The > initial reference is the first voltage measured at boot. > > Also, the AD conversion needs to be calibrated for each module, to compensate component tolerances. If you haven't done that for your modules yet, their 12V > measurements will differ. To calibrate, measure your real 12V level and change config system.adc factor12v accordingly for each module. > > Regards, > Michael > > >> Am 19.05.2018 um 02:26 schrieb Greg D.: >> Hi folks, >> >> I'm getting alerts from OVMS that my 12v battery is failing, as it's >> dropped below the threshold, which is set to 13v for some reason. So I >> get a notification every time the car transitions from awake to asleep. >> >> I don't see a configuration item, nor anything in the OVMS v2 app. >> Oddly, the threshold is 13.2 for my v3.0 proto module, but I can't find >> a config item there either. >> >> How do I change the threshold? >> >> Greg >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OvmsDev mailing list >> OvmsDev@lists.openvehicles.com <mailto:OvmsDev@lists.openvehicles.com> >> http://lists.openvehicles.com/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev <http://lists.openvehicles.com/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev> _______________________________________________ OvmsDev mailing list OvmsDev@lists.openvehicles.com <mailto:OvmsDev@lists.openvehicles.com> http://lists.openvehicles.com/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev <http://lists.openvehicles.com/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev> -- Michael Balzer * Helkenberger Weg 9 * D-58256 Ennepetal Fon 02333 / 833 5735 * Handy 0176 / 206 989 26

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