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Thu, 17 May 2018 08:14:00 +0200 (CEST) To: ovmsdev@lists.openvehicles.com References: <2f8e0090-75a4-ebe9-4dae-f02e2d5beb81@expeedo.de> <91D76B0B-304D-4E3B-B32A-1ED73C773767@webb-johnson.net> <20180516101727.GB28462@mail.ro.nu> <55A24900-5F22-43B5-BDFA-89B61E97CD0A@webb-johnson.net> From: Michael Balzer Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=dexter@expeedo.de; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsDiBD44hpIRBACN5hNaP1ucEyZXyM6E5oubK7jZZXAq9AnYlCesn7imWruNjk4oP44eS7qh 3MTueFZb3rMcvIA08qNw1WySB73lLM7SOqTfnlaIRdbyg5Ynwu09os/eHTArWEGMOn8uHxBh IdD7wv9SiZmAC7FKCuhBKk8kNIWt9Bw8ZfNvTgG2RwCg/AwvZGZjbFhN9dStw+jTYuVXCs0D /jmSsYNKNSnMD2v4SI7lnarGvhLuwMuwsYEa/s2iG66Q8BRSkc8o3WX6OJ5R/8f3dtsxS3fe /IhhPLQx5gG7wWUmhPDl0S842Kay9mzWNzjP1UCslnZ2ldFM4lbWwP0ArvKXIWbGATsaNB14 qvhaljuS8x6JkqFWge3j2YYRjSl/A/4zPycwDNg2GNgwG6pn+ay8RhPEOysdRCp/RU/TQ0uK XBACVDQRdhbgcRaqd5pWpiEepJUvIRBxNAKy2posXIfeMcNjks2mT2hvWAaD6vJHzl1pOZE5 sFlpTSQc0s5fEoYW6KjGjKpqIgjcbLDGZvtVVpR+mpPUmDasUZfC1wO/+80iTWljaGFlbCBC YWx6ZXIgPGRleHRlckBleHBlZWRvLmRlPsJXBBMRAgAXBQI+OIaSBQsHCgMEAxUDAgMWAgEC F4AACgkQ4cdaqUnOjcLqGwCbBJ/FHHIBvd6gAADlGGgU37AqWyEAn1jSt21B+taovlIoAHV2 PjjiWbOZzsBNBD44hpQQBACt/vjPd+2tvyU6z441DwjDl6LU9cDMJIc/AEfJu5KgWKJHHAeo aqvvtoQiGxb3NA3vFUS+9esPUFitlFisovmu9mP4NeTexUvcRTLwjAIdL4VtyrpkAds/XfPO LaFfjV1VM7vGQ0y1HY28GrGiegwV4XAdpxd5UrEF99UGfMJNJwADBQQAiYb1PysXCggpy/Y9 llzh9axeGGRmseMoH7K/mfMutIz8KSjOyeeNaIpjwPXNFpk+KWvOOgty8riFbp9WBdNdtwU/ q6u48xkQjMvtexhY+4DEKTelLQ1y0QUxLTfynDZMcyQl6RbA2SF57BGFUZJ+mnSz6QG72sVs JDCRSu5d7dbCRgQYEQIABgUCPjiGlAAKCRDhx1qpSc6NwklUAJ98niT6IAO4Hf2MBbrKJstG 8dx/PwCguu5JQK6/mRH++SV45zbw9cfsz+w= Message-ID: <50cf8d08-b5b4-ad1f-f044-232493d4633b@expeedo.de> Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 08:14:00 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <55A24900-5F22-43B5-BDFA-89B61E97CD0A@webb-johnson.net> Content-Language: de-DE Subject: Re: [Ovmsdev] Charge time prediction X-BeenThere: ovmsdev@lists.openvehicles.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: OVMS Developers List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: OVMS Developers Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7255930488656375735==" Errors-To: ovmsdev-bounces@lists.openvehicles.com Sender: "OvmsDev" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============7255930488656375735== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E53BB8FC79F97CBAC1E46794" Content-Language: de-DE This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E53BB8FC79F97CBAC1E46794 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am 16.05.2018 um 14:56 schrieb Mark Webb-Johnson: > The original intent of that metric was to provide an estimate for the c= harge time remaining on the current charge. That is why it was cleared at= the end of > the charge. This original intent of the three "minsremaining" car variables wasn't do= cumented and in my opinion is unnecessarily restricted. The variables hav= e been fully under control of the vehicle modules before, and there were no separate c= ar variables for a general charge time prediction, so I have been using t= hem in that more general way. Using them in that way provides a continuous configurable charge time est= imation for the user. During an actual charge, the estimates can be done for the current charge= r capabilities. During driving and parking, I use the charge current limi= t configured by the user. That is configured as the current level at the battery, so t= he input voltage doesn't matter. That way the user can for example check how long a charge at reduced curr= ent level of i.e. a camping lot would take by simply setting the charge c= urrent accordingly. The Android App displays the charge time estimations at the = bottom of the battery page, so getting an updated estimation is a matter = of three clicks. I always calculate and show all three times (full, sufficient range, suff= icient SOC), so the user can set the charge limits for the next part of t= he route and/or the return to home and still see how long a full charge would take= =2E While supporting more than one range estimation would be nice, it now alr= eady is perfectly sufficient for every day use, as you can easily adjust = the destination levels to check the times for other routes. Being able to provide parallel estimations of multiple charge destination= levels for a set of user defined standard chargers would be nice, but ca= n overload the user with information and/or configuration. The most user friendly solution would be using the OpenChargeMap data on = charge station capabilities to automatically provide all estimations for = all chargers currently in reach. The user still would need a way to configure some sta= ndard chargers for cases not covered by the OCM. But for now, setting one charger capability by setting the charge current= limit is already sufficient and convenient and doesn't require too much = interaction from the user. Regards, Michael > The estimation of charge time remaining is non-trivial. It depends on a= large set of factors (such as target SOC, temperature, charge mode, char= ge power, and > fundamentally the proprietary ramp up/down algorithm of the vehicle man= ufacturer). To come up with the predictor for the Tesla Roadster, we gath= ered several > years worth of charging records, from hundreds of different cars in the= field in different charging environments (powers, modes, temperatures, e= tc). Tom then > came up with a model to try to predict the charge time behaviour, and t= hen tested the model against the real world data we had. It was pretty co= ol. > > I think there is certainly more that algorithm could be used for, but i= t is Tesla Roadster specific. > > Perhaps what we need is a generic interface in vehicle.{h, cpp} for a c= harge time predictor. Something like: > > int OvmsVehicle::MinutesToCharge( > =C2=A0 Chargemode, > =C2=A0 Watts, > =C2=A0 StartSOC or StartRange, > =C2=A0 TargetSOC or TargetRange, > =C2=A0 Temperature) > > > Individual vehicle modules could then implement that as best they could= (a simplistic implementation being just based on battery kWh * > (TargetSoc-StartSoc)/100). We could then generically use it to show est= imates for various scenarios, etc. Along the lines of what Robin is talki= ng about below. > > But for this specific metric (MS_V_CHARGE_DURATION_FULL), that is inten= ded to be an indication for how long the current charge will take to comp= lete, and > nothing more. Once the current charge is complete (targetSOC reached), = it should be cleared. If the charge is interrupted, but the charger still= connected, > there is an argument for it to remain visible (to show how long it will= take should the charge be resumed). > > The other two (MS_V_CHARGE_DURATION_RANGE and=C2=A0MS_V_CHARGE_DURATION= _SOC, derived from=C2=A0MS_V_CHARGE_LIMIT_RANGE and=C2=A0MS_V_CHARGE_LIMI= T_SOC) are a historical relic > in the conversion from v2 -> v3, and should probably go. There are bett= er ways of doing that. > > But, the question is how can we make this generic? I really want things= to work the same across as many vehicle types as possible - keeping the = implementation > of vehicle support as simple as possible. > > Regards, Mark. > >> On 16 May 2018, at 6:17 PM, Robin O'Leary > wrote: >> >> On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 08:19:13AM +0800, Mark Webb-Johnson wrote: >>> If we don=E2=80=99t know current + voltage available from the charger= , then >>> how can we predict charge time? Or is the current + voltage for the >>> Twizy always the same (fixed?). >> >> It's still useful to show charge time estimate(s) even when charging >> isn't in progress. =C2=A0We can't be sure what will happen, but we can= still >> make reasonable guesses in various ways: >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0- show several estimates covering a range of charger= capabilities >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0(this is what the Leaf does on the dash)= >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0- assume the charge continues with the same paramete= rs as it left off >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0(is this what OVMS did before the change= discussed?) >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0- use past location data and history to predict what= will happen >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0(wishful thinking!) >> >> It seems to me that there is a strong case for having an "estimates" >> module to off-load this kind of thing from vehicle-specific modules. >> It gets so much more complicated when you go beyond what the vehicle >> module can report as objective fact (the battery capacity is X, the >> charger current is Y) and in to more subjective territory, where peopl= e >> have different ideas of what works best for them. =C2=A0We've already = hit >> that in the Leaf code with the SOC metric. =C2=A0I think there needs t= o be a >> clear separation. =C2=A0=C2=A0To please everyone, the "estimates" modu= le is likely >> going to need a load of tunable parameters that shouldn't be replicate= d >> in the vehicle modules. =C2=A0Maybe it could be completely general, li= ke the >> script-driven metric generator for OBDII? >> >>> I think it is important to clear these prediction values when they >>> are no longer useful or correct, and relying on individual vehicle >>> modules to do it seems incorrect. =C2=A0We should be able to do this = in a >>> standard way. But, I see your point about an interrupted charge (I >>> guess in that case we can presume a new charge would resume and the >>> predictions would be roughly correct, so long as vehicle and charger >>> state did not change). >> >> Not sure I see your reasoning here. =C2=A0Even when the car is not plu= gged in >> to a charger, wouldn't you still want to see some estimated charge tim= es? >> >>> How about we clear these when the vehicle charge port is detected >>> closed? (in addition to the existing =E2=80=98charge done=E2=80=99 co= ndition) >> >> That wouldn't help the Leaf, which doesn't seem to have a sensor for >> the charge port door, so we are currently faking that from the charge >> detect logic. >> _______________________________________________ >> OvmsDev mailing list >> OvmsDev@lists.openvehicles.com = >> http://lists.openvehicles.com/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev > > > > _______________________________________________ > OvmsDev mailing list > OvmsDev@lists.openvehicles.com > http://lists.openvehicles.com/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev --=20 Michael Balzer * Helkenberger Weg 9 * D-58256 Ennepetal Fon 02333 / 833 5735 * Handy 0176 / 206 989 26 --------------E53BB8FC79F97CBAC1E46794 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWw+CiAgPGhlYWQ+CiAgICA8bWV0YSBodHRwLWVxdWl2PSJDb250ZW50LVR5cGUiIGNvbnRl bnQ9InRleHQvaHRtbDsgY2hhcnNldD11dGYtOCI+CiAgPC9oZWFkPgogIDxib2R5IHRleHQ9IiMw 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