<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
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Soko,<br>
<br>
you don't need to use the poller to scan for OBD devices. You can
simply do manual transmissions and look for responses.<br>
<br>
To send a manual request, simply use the can tx command. Example:<br>
<br>
<tt>OVMS# can can1 tx standard 79b 02 01 00 00 00 00 00 00</tt><br>
<br>
This means: 2 byte OBD request sent to ID 700, type 01 = get current
data, from PID 00. PID 00 is supposed (OBD-II) to reply with a four
byte bitset of the device's PIDs 01-20 (hex) support.<br>
<br>
Send this with can logging enabled without filters, so you can see
all responses. A response could look like this:<br>
<br>
<tt>V (591792) canlog-monitor: 1596194327.716686 1R11 7BB 03 7f 01
11 00 00 00 00</tt><br>
<br>
This tells you:<br>
<ul>
<li>there is a device listening at 79b, which answers at 7bb --
nice!<br>
</li>
<li>it probably talks ISO-TP -- nice!</li>
<li> it won't allow you to do this request in it's default
session: 7F = serviceNotSupportedInActiveSession<br>
</li>
</ul>
OK, let's try to change the session (command 10) to the ISO 14229
standard "extendedDiagnosticSession" (value 03):<br>
<br>
<tt>V (2085712) canlog-monitor: 1596195821.642256 1T11 79B 02 10 03
00 00 00 00 00</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>
V (2085722) canlog-monitor: 1596195821.659737 1R11 7BB 03 7f 10 12
00 00 00 00</tt><br>
<br>
No luck. You can now begin trying all possible session codes. Or, in
my case, I already know the device uses C0 ;-)<br>
<br>
<tt>V (2095662) canlog-monitor: 1596195831.598560 1T11 79B 02 10 c0
00 00 00 00 00</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>
V (2095672) canlog-monitor: 1596195831.609308 1R11 7BB 02 50 c0 00
00 00 00 00</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>
</tt><br>
We're logged in -- nice! :-)<br>
<br>
Let's try the PID read again (do this within 60 seconds or the
session will log out, unless you send a "tester present" frame):<br>
<br>
<tt>V (2530842) canlog-monitor: 1596196266.780867 1T11 79B 02 01 00
00 00 00 00 00</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>V (2530862) canlog-monitor: 1596196266.797961 1R11 7BB 03
7f 01 11 00 00 00 00</tt><br>
<br>
Still no luck. So this tells you, the device does not support
standard OBD-II PIDs. How about a UDS DTC request (19)?<br>
<br>
<tt>V (3034142) canlog-monitor: 1596196770.085839 1T11 79B 02 19 01
ff 00 00 00 00</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>V (3034162) canlog-monitor: 1596196770.103517 1R11 7BB 03
7f 19 12 00 00 00 00</tt><br>
<br>
No luck. Let's try command 21 (read enhanced data by 8 bit PID) at
PID 00 next:<br>
<br>
<tt>V (2737632) canlog-monitor: 1596196473.567437 1T11 79B 02 21 00
00 00 00 00 00</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>V (2737712) canlog-monitor: 1596196473.649927 1R11 7BB 03
7f 21 12 00 00 00 00</tt><br>
<br>
Nope… maybe PID 01?<br>
<br>
<tt>V (2744182) canlog-monitor: 1596196480.120911 1T11 79B 02 21 01
00 00 00 00 00</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>V (2744262) canlog-monitor: 1596196480.203461 1R11 7BB 10
34 61 01 13 88 13 83</tt><br>
<br>
Houston, we've got a response :-)<br>
<br>
You would now check if this response is a single or multi frame
type, then try to get all data and then try to map the data to
something you would expect to be stored in that device.<br>
<br>
For the standard UDF commands, you will need a copy of the ISO 14229
standard.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Michael<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 31.07.20 um 12:57 schrieb Soko:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:7e8e8671-977b-7404-3e08-b3aed0cc99dd@soko.cc">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>@Chris: Thanks for taking care of the upgrade process for the
new vehicle IDs</p>
<p>@Mark: I will have a 1 hour session with VCDS today to find any
other ECU/PIDs we can maybe use to see if the car is
on/off/charging/etc. So maybe I find the ID of the gateway as
well</p>
<p>@Michael:<br>
I had the ignition off because I wanted to see if there is
anything I can query in that state. I've measured the voltages
again with ignition on: No change besides pin 1 becoming +12V
(as already mentioned @ wikipedia).<br>
I've tried to find (via Google) any (e)Up, or even general-VW,
specific pin schematics of the OBD connector... no luck. Maybe
there are some special gateway commands to put a specific CAN
directly to i.e. pin 3+11. But without getting hands on VW
internal docs I don't see how to get this info with
try&error.<br>
I will give the CANopen scan a try.</p>
<p>On how to to a range scan (700-7FF): A little bit of more input
would be great. You can find my current class here:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://github.com/devmarxx/Open-Vehicle-Monitoring-System-3/blob/master/vehicle/OVMS.V3/components/vehicle_vweup/src/obd_eup.cpp"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/devmarxx/Open-Vehicle-Monitoring-System-3/blob/master/vehicle/OVMS.V3/components/vehicle_vweup/src/obd_eup.cpp</a></p>
<p>I thought of generating one entry for each of the txids
(700-7FF) in the vwup_polls[] array. But how do I tell the
poller to accept any respond Id? And which type and PID should I
try?</p>
<p>Imho the most promising approach is to log what VCDS is doing
and which ECUs are in there and which PIDs each has. VCDS should
know all possible ECUs+PIDs for the new eUp. It has the newest
USB-interface and the software was just updated 2 weeks ago.</p>
<p>Soko<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 31.07.2020 11:29, Michael Balzer
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:678a545c-fecc-3404-b983-4891f6f96dfb@expeedo.de">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
You can first try to scan the ID range 700 - 7FF, as all
currently known e-Up devices are in that range.<br>
<br>
If you scan for unknown devices, you need to try different
standard requests and check for responses on all CAN IDs, as
ISO-TP allows devices to respond with arbitrary IDs.<br>
<br>
In case of no unknown OBD/ISO-TP responses you may also try
doing a CANopen scan:<br>
<a
href="https://docs.openvehicles.com/en/latest/components/canopen/docs/Howto-detect-CANopen-nodes.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://docs.openvehicles.com/en/latest/components/canopen/docs/Howto-detect-CANopen-nodes.html</a><br>
<br>
…but chances are possibly low VW mixes ISO-TP with CANopen
devices (Renault does).<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Michael<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 31.07.20 um 10:54 schrieb Mark
Webb-Johnson:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:B7E0F74A-92EA-4315-9F67-630029A20907@webb-johnson.net">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
The other suggestion I have is to see if the gateway itself is
alive for query. If you know the gateway ECU can bus
arbitration ID (assuming you are not already doing that for
polling). Perhaps it responds to a normal OBDII standard poll
(for things like speed, etc), or a UDS style diagnostic query.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Regards, Mark.<br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 31 Jul 2020, at 3:50 PM, Michael Balzer
<<a href="mailto:dexter@expeedo.de" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">dexter@expeedo.de</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class=""> Soko,<br class="">
<br class="">
you only had the door open, but not turned on the
car? If there are additional buses, they may be
switched off until the car is turned on…<br class="">
<br class="">
The OBD connector scheme is the general pin
assignment, I meant the specific VW e-Up schematics.
But if you don't see any voltages with the car
turned on, that's bad news.<br class="">
<br class="">
There may still be some command interface for the
OBD gateway to enable live data, but without any
info about the gateway, it will be hard to even find
out how to address it.<br class="">
<br class="">
Regards,<br class="">
Michael<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 31.07.20 um 09:06
schrieb Soko:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:d26bd0bc-4f57-d727-1b86-183c030fbbb3@soko.cc"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<p class="">Hey guys,</p>
<p class="">If I did nothing wrong I have bad
news:</p>
<p class="">@Michael:<br class="">
With OBD port schematics I think you mean this <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-board_diagnostics#OBD-II_diagnostic_connector"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-board_diagnostics#OBD-II_diagnostic_connector</a><br
class="">
Specifically if there are some other pins used
than the standard CAN pins 6 and 14.<br class="">
So I had the drivers door open, no key in
ignition and measured the voltages of all pins
in relation to pin 5 (signal ground). There is
no voltage on any pin besides 2.5V on 6 and 14,
and 12V on 16 of course. So there are no hidden
CAN buses (or any other signals) afaict.</p>
<p class="">@Mark:<br class="">
Thanks for the hint with the can log. It's way
easier than RE Tools for just checking if there
is any traffic.<br class="">
Having said that... there is no traffic
whatsoever besides what I am polling and the
reply. Even when ignition is on I only see the
poll and the reply on the can log</p>
<p class="">So it seems devmarxx was right: The
gateway shields everything and there are even no
other hidden signals on the OBD port.</p>
<p class="">I'm happy to try any other ideas you
guys have. Just let me know!</p>
<p class="">Soko<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 31.07.2020 02:11,
Mark Webb-Johnson wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:9A478EA0-DC29-4367-A25D-9407EAEB2E8F@webb-johnson.net"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
If you are just looking for traffic on the CAN
bus, a simple can log would be the easiest.
Assuming you are on USB console, it is:
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border:
none; padding: 0px;" class="">
<div class="">OVMS# log level verbose
canlog-monitor</div>
<div class="">OVMS# can log start monitor crtd</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If you are using ssh, you need
to add a:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border:
none; padding: 0px;" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">OVMS# log monitor yes</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">To stop the logging:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border:
none; padding: 0px;" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">OVMS# can log stop</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Documentation here:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border:
none; padding: 0px;" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><a
href="https://docs.openvehicles.com/en/latest/crtd/can_logging.html"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://docs.openvehicles.com/en/latest/crtd/can_logging.html</a></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">For my work, I personally
prefer this arrangement:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px;
border: none; padding: 0px;" class="">
<div class="">OVMS# can log start
tcpserver transmit gvret-b :23</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">
<div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"
class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"
class="">And then I use <a
href="https://www.savvycan.com/"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">SavvyCAN</a> on
a laptop to connect over wifi and work.</div>
<div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"
class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class="">Regarding the ‘re’ system, it is
a work-in-progress, and not currently
documented. It is still kind of a mess at
the moment (particularly for multiplexed
message IDs), as I continue to work on DBC
integration. That said, it is basically
functional.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class="">To start it:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border:
none; padding: 0px;" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">OVMS# re start</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">To stop it:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border:
none; padding: 0px;" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">OVMS# re stop</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">To see discovered IDs:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border:
none; padding: 0px;" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">OVMS# re list</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">It will (by default) listen on
all open CAN buses, and show you the
discovered ID, message count, interval (in
ms), and last message seen.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">It has some rudimentary ability
to monitor active polling protocols with ‘re
obdii extended <min> <max>’ (or
standard), specifying the range of IDs used
by the ECUs.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">Regards, Mark</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 30 Jul 2020, at 11:56 PM,
Soko <<a href="mailto:ovms@soko.cc"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">ovms@soko.cc</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
class="">
<div class="">
<p class="">@devmarxx: Is there any
doc/guide on how to use this RE
Tools?</p>
<p class="">@Michael: Yeah, I know.
You would have done my 1-day work in
5 mins. I know C++ but I don't know
the OVMS framework. But its like
with any project: The issue is not
the language, its the framework.</p>
<p class="">Until you have yours you
have to settle with me unfortunately
;)</p>
<p class="">My cousin has a working
VCDS HEX interface and I have an
y-adapter so I can listen with an
ELM327 adapter to the commands VCDS
is sending. Maybe I can find any car
status there. Device 09 is a good
hint. <br class="">
</p>
<p class="">But as you said: I have
still have to poll this, even if I
find a status.</p>
<p class="">I can't say (of course) if
there's another CAN bus @ OBD port.
All this CAN/OBD/Bus stuff is
completely new to me.. ModBus
RTU/TCP, MBus etc. I would know ;)</p>
<p class="">So if you can point me in
any direction what to try - or what
you would do - I happy to dig into
it.</p>
<p class="">Soko</p>
<p class="">PS: Any idea when you'll
get your Mii?<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On
30.07.2020 17:14, Michael Balzer
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:193a06ae-81aa-52a0-047e-6bde5107dbdc@expeedo.de"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
class="">
If only I had my Mii already…<br
class="">
<br class="">
If the OBD port is shielded from the
CAN traffic, you need to poll some
device. ECU = Engine Control Unit =
device 01.<br class="">
<br class="">
I would suspect the basic car status
info to be available from device 09
(central electrics), but it seems no
PIDs have been RE'd from there yet.
So maybe you need to derive the info
from some other mode/status
register.<br class="">
<br class="">
It's bad needing to continuosly poll
to get the live status data. Is
possibly another, unfiltered CAN bus
available at the OBD port?<br
class="">
<br class="">
Regards,<br class="">
Michael<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
30.07.20 um 16:43 schrieb Soko:<br
class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:c46c65de-ae20-f2db-4c2b-052843756691@soko.cc"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8" class="">
<p class="">Ahhh OK, I've found
OvmsVehicle::virtual void
TickerXXX(uint32_t ticker);<br
class="">
Got it! This was exactly my
issue as I didn't know about any
function which gets called
regularly so I could check
something like this...<br
class="">
It's not an ideal situation
though: I just can slow down the
poll after my fail-counter gets
too high as I need to check when
the car gets powered again. So
all I can do is polling, lets
say every 60 secs when the car
is off, and increase it once its
on. But there is now way around
this 60-sec polling if the only
thing I can do is poll :(<br
class="">
</p>
<p class="">Afaik there is only
the sharkcow's list below,
reverse engineered by him from
ODBeleven.</p>
<p class="">(dev)marxx exlpained
to me: There is a gateway
between the CAN-Buses and the
OBD Connector in all VW-AG
vehicles which only replies to
polls and also acts as security
gateway if you want to write to
the buses.</p>
<p class="">So I think I cannot
really do a can log or use re
tool as the OBD interface stays
quiet if I'm not polling it...</p>
<p class="">And as there is no
other vehicle from
VW,Seat,Skoda,Audi,etc. in OVMS.
So I have no cheat-sheet :(</p>
<p class="">Anyhow... I would need
to poll one ECU (is this the
correct therm?) which doesn't
shuts down... or maybe the issue
is the OBD-gateway shutting
down.<br class="">
</p>
<p class="">What do you think?</p>
<p class="">Soko<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On
30.07.2020 16:17, Michael Balzer
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:429f9711-74bd-828c-0c9c-3872f9b0bfac@expeedo.de"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8" class="">
Soko,<br class="">
<br class="">
nice progress :-)<br class="">
<br class="">
If you can't detect vehicle
state by listening to regular
status CAN frames, you can check
the time since the last poll
reply in the per second ticker.<br
class="">
<br class="">
As poll replies normally come in
fast, you should be able to
detect a switch-off by a small
timeout, say 3 seconds… probably
need to add a counter, as a
single poll may get lost /
ignored.<br class="">
<br class="">
CAN tx errors can be caused by
other issues as well, so should
generally not be interpreted
that way.<br class="">
<br class="">
But… are you sure there are no
status frames on the bus? Have
you done a can log or tried the
re tool?<br class="">
<br class="">
Regards,<br class="">
Michael<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
30.07.20 um 14:43 schrieb
Soko:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:dfef03ed-b0e1-1fda-7eab-de5b6e49cc67@soko.cc"
class="">Hi guys, <br
class="">
<br class="">
Want to report success on
connecting and reading my VW
e-Up via OBD cable using the
Poller. As you can see in the
screenshot of the log attached
I get an IncomingPollReply(..)
call and an SoC value of
33.333% <br class="">
<br class="">
Once I turn of the ignition
and lock the car though I
don't get any replies no more
(line D 793813) and then I get
can1 errors... I'm polling
with 10 seconds intervall. <br
class="">
<br class="">
I know that this is as it
should be... but my issue is:
I don't have any way to know
if the ignition is on, the key
is in, the car is running, the
car is charging as the PIDs
are not known for such values
(afaik by the lists of
sharkcow <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.goingelectric.de/wiki/Liste-der-OBD2-Codes/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.goingelectric.de/wiki/Liste-der-OBD2-Codes/</a>).
<br class="">
<br class="">
So what would be the best
approach to change the
different polling states? Can
I somehow get called (in my
vehicle-class) if an can-error
is thrown? Then I would
increase the poll frequency. <br
class="">
<br class="">
Any suggestions? <br class="">
<br class="">
thanks <br class="">
<br class="">
Soko <br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Michael Balzer * Helkenberger Weg 9 * D-58256 Ennepetal
Fon 02333 / 833 5735 * Handy 0176 / 206 989 26
</pre>
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Michael Balzer * Helkenberger Weg 9 * D-58256 Ennepetal
Fon 02333 / 833 5735 * Handy 0176 / 206 989 26
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Michael Balzer * Helkenberger Weg 9 * D-58256 Ennepetal
Fon 02333 / 833 5735 * Handy 0176 / 206 989 26
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Michael Balzer * Helkenberger Weg 9 * D-58256 Ennepetal
Fon 02333 / 833 5735 * Handy 0176 / 206 989 26
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Michael Balzer * Helkenberger Weg 9 * D-58256 Ennepetal
Fon 02333 / 833 5735 * Handy 0176 / 206 989 26
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