<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><br></div>By the way, does anyone know what the Tattler uses? Any pictures? I'm guessing a development board with CAN, something like those boards on the olimex site.<div><br></div><div>Regards, Mark.</div><div><br><div><div>On 10 Jun, 2012, at 1:29 PM, Mark Webb-Johnson wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Tom,<div><br></div><div>I kind of think that there are two camps out there:</div><div><br></div><div><ol class="MailOutline"><li>Cheap, simple, just do one function (remote monitoring and control)</li><li>Kitchen sink (touch LCD, wifi hotspot, etc)</li></ol></div><div><br></div><div>While Sonny and I have looked at 32bit embedded processors, including the PIC and ARM varieties, it feels like half way between the two camps. It will give us more than [1], but can't really do the more advanced things that [2] can do.</div><div><br></div><div>We already know that [1] comes in around US$100 in the quantities we are talking about. I've seen [2] around US$200-US$300. My biggest concern with [2] is power requirements to keep the thing running when the vehicle is off - not so much a concern for the roadster, but a big issue for little lead-acid 12V battery based systems.</div><div><br></div><div>In an ideal world, I'd go for camp [3], rip out the pos Alpine and replace it with a double-din in-car-computer that does the job better for 1/3rd the price - can you imaging having a 7" display with exactly what we want, as well as 3G hotspot, OVMS remote control and decent navigation? Sadly, I just don't have the free time and the power requirements are truly terrifying [not to mention the fear of what the Tesla engineer would say next time I took it in for warranty repair / service] :-( I do hold out hope that Tesla will allow us to run some powerful apps on the model S / X displays, but I'm a realist and am not holding my breath.</div><div><br></div><div>There is another interesting approach - Arduino. These guys:</div><blockquote class="webkit-indent-blockquote" style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div><a href="http://www.rechargecar.com/content/first-glimpse-macchina">http://www.rechargecar.com/content/first-glimpse-macchina</a></div></blockquote><div>have approached us, and there may be an interesting partnership there. I really like the way they work. Very focussed and in the EV community. They are more into the hardware side of things, and are looking for open source software partners - exactly the opposite of us, and very complementary. I think they signed up for this list, and perhaps can comment here (or maybe too early, but the product is up on their website, so I guess no harm mentioning it)?</div><div><br></div><div>The reason we initially kept away from Arduino was cost. We were fixated on <US$100 all-in, and to meet that we had to keep things simple and well-and-truly in the [1] camp.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards, Mark.</div><div><br></div><div>P.S. An alternative approach for multi-CAN is that the MCP2551+PIC18 combination is cheap and simple as hell. It would not be hard to just put multiple microprocessors in their, each handling decoding of their own bus, and multiplexing it all back to the main controller on an I2C style bus. Not elegant, but very expandable :-)</div><div><br><div><div>On 10 Jun, 2012, at 12:25 AM, Tom Saxton wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Cathy and I went to a tech/sales seminar from ST Micro. They have a line of<br>32-bit ARM chips that includes chips with support for 2 CAN buses, the first<br>I've seen.<br><br><a href="http://www.st.com/internet/mcu/subclass/1169.jsp">http://www.st.com/internet/mcu/subclass/1169.jsp</a><br><br>The STM32F105 line has dual CAN, dual UART, and USB. The STM32F107 line adds<br>Ethernet support. Flash size varies from 64K to 256K. DigiKey shows unit<br>pricing for the STM32F105 chips in the $4 to $10 range.<br><br>The tools story is not awesome. Although there was some mention of GCC, it's<br>not clear to me that there are quality, free tools available.<br><br> Tom<br><br>on 6/9/12 7:55 AM, Mark Webb-Johnson wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Michael,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">We can only connect to one CAN bus at the moment. I think it is quite tricky<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">to do more, as most of the chips I can find have only 1 ECAN module.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Regards, Mark.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On 9 Jun, 2012, at 2:17 AM, Michael Jochum wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Hi,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">nice work.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I think you are on the right way. Dont put to much in it. A loop through<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">connector for the CAN Bus could be very help full.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I think the next step could be a separate Module with LCD, SD-Card Slot, etc.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">for showing and Logging live Data.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">One Thing: to how many CAN Buses can you simultaneously connect to? How many<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">can you handle at the same time?<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I thing i could be a good idea to have the possibility connect to more than<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">one. The Volt/Ampera has 5 (five!).<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Bye<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">michael<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Am 08.06.2012 um 02:33 schrieb Mark Webb-Johnson:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Apologies for the length of this eMail, but lots to go through...<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">We've come to the end of our initial batch of boards, and there are<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">significant minimum-order-quantities for things like circuit boards, so we<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">are taking the opportunity to switch to hardware v2.0.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The roadster owners who wanted something like this presumably already have<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">it, or are waiting for Tesla's solution. So, we're trying to think mostly of<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">the _other_ cars out there. Things like the Volt/Ampera, Leaf and my wife's<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">ICE Nissan children ferry.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The problems we've had with the current hardware include:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Production reliability issues with the factory<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Quality issues (particularly soldering) with the factory<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Too fiddly to produce and too many components<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Too hard to diagnose problems<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">QC and Logistics is just a hassle for Sonny and myself - not fun ;-)<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Once we add in using this in other cars, we also get:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Concerns over 12V battery load<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Lack of GPS in some cars<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Things got better as the existing hardware went from 1.0 (initial prototype<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">with RJ11s) to 1.1 (kludgy developer prototypes with glued-on adaptor<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">cables) to the current 1.2 (little white 4pin and 2pin connectors), but<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">still just too much work to get these made.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Accordingly, what we are trying to do is come up with a v2.0 hardware<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">design. As what we have works so well, there seems little point in making<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">any dramatic shifts - we've considered switching to a 32bit processor,<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">built-in touch-screen display, etc - as that would be something completely<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">different. We just want to incrementally improve the points that are<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">'hurting' now. Keep it a very low cost module that does what it does well.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Here are the changes we have come up with:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Change to a single-board approach, made by a single factory. The board will<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">contain the controller and SIMCOM GSM/GPRS system in one.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The board external connectors will be exposed through the box. We'll use a<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">standard DB9 (male), then adaptor cables from that to each car's<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">requirements. Pins are #2 CAN-L, #3 GND, #7 CAN-H and #9 +12V.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The existing diag DB9 (female) is unchanged, but should be externally<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">accessible.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">IPC pins to also be externally accessible, so firmware can be updated<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">without opening the case.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Upgrade the processor from 2680 to 2685. Gives us more flash (useful for<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">cars other than roadster), but otherwise completely compatible.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Connection of 12V line to microprocessor ADC. This will allow us to measure<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">supply voltage and take appropriate actions.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Upgrade SIM900 to SIM908, to give us optional GPS for cars that don't have<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">it - this can be powered up/down by AT commands.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">LEDs go to the bottom of the board, to be closer to the holes and hence more<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">visible.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">QC and logistics done in china - a partnership with a website there to<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">handle order processing and logistics from stock.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><ovms_v2_layoutdiagram.png><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I really want to make something very very clear - this is not intended as an<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">'upgrade' for existing v1.x modules for roadster owners. The Tesla Roadster<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">is covered, and work really well with v1.x hardware. New roadster owners<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">will be able to use v2.x hardware as well, but there is no point in<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">'upgrading' from v1.x to v2.x hardware, for Roadster owners. The new v2.x<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">hardware is primarily intended to make it easier so support other types of<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">cars.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">As I mentioned at the top of this email, we're down to the last few v1.x<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">modules - there was a recent unexpected rush of orders. So, today, we've<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">taken down the hardware offering at <a href="http://www.openvehicles.com">www.openvehicles.com</a>, until the v2.x<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">hardware arrives. If someone _really_ needs a v1.x module, we still have<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">some and can let you have it, but we really want to keep as many of the<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">modules we have left as repair spares for existing owners.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">For those working with us on OVMS in other cars (Michael on Volt/Ampera,<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">etc) don't worry - we'll look after you and swap you v2.x hardware if<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">necessary.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">We're just now entering prototype stage with the factory, so if anyone has<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">any comments/suggestions please send them in. I'm working hard on this. So<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">long as the prototypes are ok, we should have production ready in 4-to-6<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">weeks.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Regards, Mark.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">OvmsDev mailing list<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="mailto:OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk">OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk</a><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev">http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev</a><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">OvmsDev mailing list<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="mailto:OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk">OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev">http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">OvmsDev mailing list<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="mailto:OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk">OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev">http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev</a><br></blockquote><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>OvmsDev mailing list<br><a href="mailto:OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk">OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk</a><br>http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev<br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>OvmsDev mailing list<br><a href="mailto:OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk">OvmsDev@lists.teslaclub.hk</a><br>http://lists.teslaclub.hk/mailman/listinfo/ovmsdev<br></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>